Current state of the program

Woodless! wrote:

?????????

blacksheep wrote:?????????

I figured it was something that only a "hipster" would understand....I certainly didn't!

Spinnaface was the halftime entertainment at the Gonzaga game a few years back. It occurred to me that none of us saw at as we had better things to do during halftime.

Are we still feeling like things are headed in the right direction? It's frustrating watching Derrek, Oskars and Kevin work so hard to create something in transition while the coaching staff keeps yelling at them to slow it down and dump the ball inside. This looks like a program with no direction. I sat with a group of St Mary's fans that were laughing at us last night. We look like an AAU team scrimmaging against a D1 team. Awful! Just awful!

The op -PilotNut - made several excellent and in my view spot on observations. Sadly, it is not surprising to me the level of resistance, denial, and excuse filled replies he received. I've heard it all before - academics, budget, "we're making progress and we signed one or two excellent prospects and those guys from 4 years ago...", etc, etc., and it "rains in Portland, what can we do?"

Why do some believe that bringing in better players necessarily means sacrificing academic integrity? It's being dones at schools with tougher academic programs than UP in basketball AND football, where you need 85 players, not just 12. I can assure you, there are an abundance of basketball players out there who would meet the requirements and be successful in this environment. Quit being so defensive about our talent level and really try to be honest with yourself and objective.

I don't remember who mentioned school size as the biggest problem, but I'm sorry, what does school size have to do with recruiting 12 basketball players??? There are small schools out there who consistently get better players than we do, and some are in our own conference.

The resistance, defensiveness, inability to be objective about our lack of talent, the lack of dreaming big, the defeatist/eyeore type thinking, I've been hearing it for the last 20 years. It's the main reason I don't post here very much, because so many are so resistant to critical self analysis. Solving the problem requires honest self assessment of the programs strengths and weaknesses.

CRTICAL ANALYSIS DOES NOT = BEING "NEGATIVE" !!!!!

Thank You PilotNut, and it's too bad your excellent post got such a pathetic reaction. MINDSET is everything folks. It starts at the top and filters down to the fans as well.

"MINDSET is everything folks."

"WAR is Peace."

An interesting thread, which appears to start with a request for comments from all prospectives, but which ends with denunciation of those with a different prospective, though that prospective may indeed be right, not merely a "pathetic reaction."

Let's hope the program can turn these losing ways around soon.



Go Pilots.

wrv wrote:"MINDSET is everything folks."

"WAR is Peace."

An interesting thread, which appears to start with a request for comments from all prospectives, but which ends with denunciation of those with a different prospective, though that prospective may indeed be right, not merely a "pathetic reaction."

Let's hope the program can turn these losing ways around soon.



Go Pilots.

Do you disagree that mindset is critical? Your "war" is "peace" comment escapes me, and not sure what you're attempting to say there.

It is "pathetic" when certain people keep making the same excuses year after year after year, and seem to refuse to believe that there is even a problem.

WRV, we both know that it wouldn't matter what I say as far as you're concerned.

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result". Albert Eeinstein.

goldhelmet wrote:


Do you disagree that mindset is critical? Your "war" is "peace" comment escapes me, and not sure what you're attempting to say there.

It is "pathetic" when certain people keep making the same excuses year after year after year, and seem to refuse to believe that there is even a problem.

WRV, we both know that it wouldn't matter what I say as far as you're concerned.

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result". Albert Eeinstein.

Your insanity quote doesn't help a discussion any more.


I wish you hadn't used that last quote. Its mostly an internet fabrication, and possibly part of an AA set lesson plan (shirley somebody in Pilotnation has first hand knowledge of that.) There isn't anything in first person attributions or original writings the he said that.

The quote is in probably 20 different forms, including "insanity is performing the same experiment repeatedly and expecting different results" which if you have ever spent a few years in labs doing experiments in subatomic physics, is more the norm than the exception.

One would think that if it were a real quote, it would be consistently the same quote.

And as a rule Einstein was not an experimental physicists. He mostly did thought experiments.

First of all, nobody here has been to an AA meeting. AA is for quitters

I went from being encouraged after the Gonzaga game to being extremely discouraged after St. Mary's. We continually try to feed the ball to our bigs when they get double and triple teamed. I know we are limited by the players we have, but can't we at least try some other plays to see if they might work?

I don't think it's time to look for a new coach though. Last year we had a senior shooting guard that simply checked out and took the whole team with him. This year, the team is continuing to fight, but just doesn't have the horses. I do see a lot of promise in some of our young guys though, especially Oscars. I would give Rev next year to show improvement, then show that he can sustain it.

I agree that I dont think a coaching change right now fixes the problem... we need to figure out a way to get better recruits on campus and develop the talent we have. We have a PG coming in (to replace the graduating PG) , and a spot yet to fill for next year. The problem is, we need more impact talent sooner than that...

Fall of 2013: Lose Rodgers, gain Wintering & 1 more.
Fall of 2014: Lose T. Riley, Thieleke, Nicholas. Gain 3.
Fall of 2015: Lose K. Bailey, J. Bailey, van der Mars, Barker, Carr

From this Trib article, Rev stated, in regards to the open scholarship position: "And we have one scholarship open. We’re looking for someone in regard to ballhandling skills." So, it would appear that we will be getting another much needed back court player... The problem with that is it means we wouldnt be able to bring in any 3's, 4's or 5's until the fall of 2014, when we will have lost Thieleke & Nicholas... that leaves us very thin & young at the 3 & 4 spot in 2014-15. Then, we get really thin down low in 2015-16...

"We cannot mistake absolutism for principle or substitute spectacle for politics, or treat name-calling as reasoned debate.” Barrack H. Obama – Inaugural Address, January 21, 2013.

We ALL stand for one cause.....the betterment of the University of Portland as a community, including the rise of the Pilots Men’s Basketball Team to a competitive level and eventual prominence.

PurpleGeezer wrote:

goldhelmet wrote:


Do you disagree that mindset is critical? Your "war" is "peace" comment escapes me, and not sure what you're attempting to say there.

It is "pathetic" when certain people keep making the same excuses year after year after year, and seem to refuse to believe that there is even a problem.

WRV, we both know that it wouldn't matter what I say as far as you're concerned.

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result". Albert Eeinstein.

Your insanity quote doesn't help a discussion any more.


I wish you hadn't used that last quote. Its mostly an internet fabrication, and possibly part of an AA set lesson plan (shirley somebody in Pilotnation has first hand knowledge of that.) There isn't anything in first person attributions or original writings the he said that.

The quote is in probably 20 different forms, including "insanity is performing the same experiment repeatedly and expecting different results" which if you have ever spent a few years in labs doing experiments in subatomic physics, is more the norm than the exception.

One would think that if it were a real quote, it would be consistently the same quote.

And as a rule Einstein was not an experimental physicists. He mostly did thought experiments.

It really doesn't matter who said it. It makes sense regardless of who said it or says it. I never said what kind of physicist Einstein was, and I hardly see how it matters.

A great quote actually, and it goes back to the idea of getting some smart folks together in a room to think outside the box. And I think it can be applied to the coaching situation as well. We know what Rev is capable of. Is he getting the most out of the talent on the roster today? I think so.

College hoops isn't subatomic physics, for what it's worth.

pilotram wrote:A great quote actually, and it goes back to the idea of getting some smart folks together in a room to think outside the box. And I think it can be applied to the coaching situation as well. We know what Rev is capable of. Is he getting the most out of the talent on the roster today? I think so.

College hoops isn't subatomic physics, for what it's worth.

Agree completely. The quote can be applied to applied to a wide spectrum of endeavors, including theoretcal physics/mathematics.

PilotNut wrote:I agree that I dont think a coaching change right now fixes the problem... we need to figure out a way to get better recruits on campus and develop the talent we have. We have a PG coming in (to replace the graduating PG) , and a spot yet to fill for next year. The problem is, we need more impact talent sooner than that...

Fall of 2013: Lose Rodgers, gain Wintering & 1 more.
Fall of 2014: Lose T. Riley, Thieleke, Nicholas. Gain 3.
Fall of 2015: Lose K. Bailey, J. Bailey, van der Mars, Barker, Carr

From this Trib article, Rev stated, in regards to the open scholarship position: "And we have one scholarship open. We’re looking for someone in regard to ballhandling skills." So, it would appear that we will be getting another much needed back court player... The problem with that is it means we wouldnt be able to bring in any 3's, 4's or 5's until the fall of 2014, when we will have lost Thieleke & Nicholas... that leaves us very thin & young at the 3 & 4 spot in 2014-15. Then, we get really thin down low in 2015-16...

Agree that "fire the coach" is not the solution. This is a much bigger evaluation that needs to be done. At a minimum, the whole recruiting philosophy/process needs a complete and objective assessment. Talent evaluation is a critical area in my view. If you're chasing after the wrong guys, it won't matter how hard you work in the end. Recruiting is about pounding the pavement and persistence, but that's assuming you are going after the right targets.

It is at least slightly ironic how well Reveno recruited at the outset of his tenure and how it appears now that we do not have the talent to compete. Recruiting wise, I place my bet on getting back court help that can open the middle by shooting the three and thereby help some of these bigs get better shots or at least give them the ball when they are open, not the pound, pound, pound and back down with your butt approach that did not work against St. Mary's. Our bigs also need to pass back out to the guards when they are double teamed; it would help if the guards could shoot.

With only one more scholarship, we also need to hope we get more help from the current freshman class.

PilotNut wrote:
Fall of 2013: Lose Rodgers, gain Wintering & 1 more.
Fall of 2014: Lose T. Riley, Thieleke, Nicholas. Gain 3.
Fall of 2015: Lose K. Bailey, J. Bailey, van der Mars, Barker, Carr

The class of 2014 is the chance to move beyond crisis-recruiting mode. We should view the graduation of T. Riley, Thieleke, and Nicholas as an opportunity to move the program in a better direction. If we cannot replace Riley and Thieleke with significantly better players, then it will be time for Reveno and company to move on. As good as Nicholas is, he should not be the best player on the team. I believe UP's goal should be for a Nicholas-type player to be the 6th man/first off the bench/energy player to come in and give the team a shot in the arm -- not the leading scorer.

As for the remaining open scholarship for this coming season... I am skeptical of using it on another guard: In the current freshman and sophomore classes, plus Wintering, we have 6 guards, 2 centers, and 2 forwards (one of whom is clearly the team's worst player; the other, for all intents and purposes, has made zero contributions in games this season). We need to get past crisis-recruiting and think about the stability of the program. That means balancing out the roster by bringing in a solid front court player who can cut his teeth next year, and then step up and fill Nicholas' shoes the following year. Ideally it should be someone who is better than Nicholas. (I'm increasingly convinced that Nicholas appears good only because of the context of the team he plays on. He is our best player, and I don't think he'd make the starting line-up for half of the other teams in the conference.)

All of this, of course, presupposes that players don't progress. These are college kids, and UP isnt in the possition to get complete players from High school. They go to Duke.

How many of you remember that Pooh Jeter and Jared Stohl and Casey Frandsen ( or hell, Luke Sikma) weren't starters their first couple years?

DoubleDipper wrote:

"We cannot mistake absolutism for principle or substitute spectacle for politics, or treat name-calling as reasoned debate.” Barrack H. Obama – Inaugural Address, January 21, 2013.

We ALL stand for one cause.....the betterment of the University of Portland as a community, including the rise of the Pilots Men’s Basketball Team to a competitive level and eventual prominence.

Complete hypocrisy considering the source, and that goes for both parties.

Calling no one names here, but I did call out a behavior that I've seen over the years that is resistant to critical analysis, and labels it as an absolute - "being negative". [b]

Am I passionate about it? Hell yes. If I didn't care , I wouldn't be passionate at all.

PurpleGeezer wrote:All of this, of course, presupposes that players don't progress. These are college kids, and UP isnt in the possition to get complete players from High school. They go to Duke.

How many of you remember that Pooh Jeter and Jared Stohl and Casey Frandsen ( or hell, Luke Sikma) weren't starters their first couple years?

Well, Jeter and Sikma did make significant contributions right away, and the point is that they did develop. We've had too many guys come in and not develop at all, or very little in their total careers here, that's really my point.

Don't you think we could recruit better players out of HS than we're currently signing? I do. What I'm hearing you saying is that it's a losing proposition from the start to want or expect a higher quality of basketball players who can also succeed as students. Correct me if that's not what you're saying, but that's kind of what I'm hearing.

Look back at the box scores. Luke sat out a lot of his freshman and Sophmore year with anemia and injury. Pooh was a spot player his freshman year who turned the ball over, and Casey wasn't close to Div 1 material when he came here.

Jared was invisible early.

There isn't a single program in the WCC that would have Korey, Ryan, David or John on their roster. And three of those guys are in our starting line up. You have to ask yourself what these coaches are looking for when they hit the recruiting trail. You also have to wonder why they'd recruit players like Kevin and Oskars when what they really want are spot up shooters to open up the middle for their bigs. Why don't we have any back-door alley oops plays for Kevin? Why don't our bigs get rebounds and outlet to Oskars for transition baskets? Our guards are as quick as any in the WCC! I just don't get what the game plan is most nights. It appears that the guys aren't that sure either.

If the plan is to wait for our bigs to figure it out I'm afraid that we may be waiting a really long time. I mentioned this before but it's worth repeating... Thomas came to us as a 21 year old freshman that already spent several years playing on a semi-pro circuit in Spain. I get that the American game is different from the European game but I don't see him making any progress, especially when you compare him to other foreign players in our conference. Riley has had the opportunity to "learn" the system for 2 years after redshirtting his freshman year and taking a medical redshirt in year two. At least there's progress but still not enough to beat out Thomas for the starting job.

We can't continue down this path and expect fans to keep supporting this program.

[quote="newpilotfan"]There isn't a single program in the WCC that would have Korey, Ryan, David or John on their roster. And three of those guys are in our starting line up.

Pretty mean thing to say overall about all those players but lets take a look at Ryan? You and NoPo should go back to watching games on the pitch where you belong because its obvious that you dont know much about the game of basketball.
I could be from the old school but any player on ANY team averaging a double double for the season, and games (as an example) vs UNLV (14pts 19rbs), Kentucky (15pts and 13rbs), I am pretty sure not only would be play for any team in the WCC he would start for all of them minus Gonzaga. There is only one other WCC player currently averaging a double double for the year. What do I know except by the time Nicholas is done, on his current scoring and rebounding rate he will be in the 1000 point club, and has a chance to be the all time rebounding leader at the U of P. So sorry folks, I dont buy into your arguement.
I suspect the above mentioned posters are what we get as a sampling when the season(s) are not going as well as planned. I had recommended in a previous post that we try to look at the positives and now it seems that some have resulted to insulting the players we do have. Keep it classy guys.

PurpleGeezer wrote:Look back at the box scores. Luke sat out a lot of his freshman and Sophmore year with anemia and injury. Pooh was a spot player his freshman year who turned the ball over, and Casey wasn't close to Div 1 material when he came here.

Jared was invisible early.

You're missing my point entirely. I never said they started as freshman, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. If you're starting a lot of freshman every year, that doesn't speak very well as to how you are evaluating talent, recruiting them, and then developing them when they are in the program. Pooh averaged 22 minutes a game as a freshman and started as a sophomore - over 30 minutes a game. Sikma average almost 8 rebounds a game as a freshman, and that is definitely making a significant contribution.

You're missing the bigger picture and point, and I'm not sure what point it is you are trying to make. Those guys were here quite awhile ago. If you are talking about a few players every 8-10 years - and that's how far we are going back with Frandsen and Pooh - you're not recruiting enough talented players each and every year. That is the distant pass. How long are we going to reminisce about TJ Campbell, Sikma, Raivio, Pooh, Frandsen, Jared Stohl, etc. Gonzaga can name that many guys in one year's time who would be reserves on their team.

For what it's worth, it might not be a bad idea to remember that even when we had Pooh on the team, we never had a winning record or finished anywhere near the top of the WCC.

A bit of historical context is always helpful. Here is UP's record over the past 30 years. There have been a grand total of six winning seasons, all of them under either Chavez or Reveno (i.e. the last 18 years).

Avina
82-83: 10-18, 4-8
83-84: 11-17, 2-10
84-85: 14-14, 3-9
85-86: 13-15, 4-10
86-87: 14-14, 6-8
Total: 62-78 (44%), 19-45 (30%)

Steele
87-88: 6-22, 1-13
88-89: 2-26, 2-12
89-90: 11-17, 7-7
90-91: 5-23, 3-11
91-92: 10-18, 3-11
92-93: 9-18, 3-11
93-94: 13-17, 6-8
Total: 56-141 (28%), 25-73 (26%)

Chavez
94-95: 21-8, 10-4
95-96: 19-11, 7-7
96-97: 9-18, 4-10
97-98: 14-13, 7-7
98-99: 9-18, 3-11
99-00: 10-18, 4-10
00-01: 11-17, 4-10
Total: 93-103 (47%), 39-59 (40%)

Holton
01-02: 6-24, 2-12
02-03: 11-17, 4-10
03-04: 11-17, 5-9
04-05: 15-15, 4-10
05-06: 11-18, 5-9
Total: 54-91 (37%), 20-50 (29%)

Reveno
06-07: 9-23, 4-10
07-08: 9-23, 3-11
08-09: 19-13, 9-5
09-10: 21-11, 10-4
10-11: 20-12, 7-7
11-12: 7-24, 3-13
12-13*: 8-12, 1-4
Total: 93-118 (44%), 37-54 (41%)

If nothing else, I think this shows there are historical challenges to simply winning, let alone consistently winning. I'm not making excuses at all, but I do think it's important to remember the history.