Re: 2022 WCC Season/Games

by DoubleDipper Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:33 am

DoubleDipper wrote:

I have been told today's game against Pacific is OFF!!

A "couple of positives" came back for the Tigers team this morning...

Still awaiting "official" confirmation.

It's official!

by Geezaldinho Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:40 pm

Just got an Email from David Taylor.

It’s official

by DoubleDipper Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:18 am

Another slight schedule change...

This coming Thursday's matchup between the Pilots and Zags in Spokane has been moved up from 6pm to 4pm to accommodate the televised men's game between USF and GU.

Thursday - January 20 - UP @ GU @ 4pm.

by DoubleDipper Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:45 am

DoubleDipper wrote:Thursday - January 20 - UP @ GU @ 4pm.

The Pilots (11-3/1-1/NET 64) have their rematch with Gonzaga (12-4/3-0/NET 29) this afternoon at 4pm, and it would appear UP will be close to full strength with the return of Keeley and Lucy.

In GU’s 76-65 defeat of UP two weeks ago, GU's two 6-1 forwards combined for 47 of the Zag’s points, and GU outrebounded UP 42-27. To have a chance of winning today, Alex is going to need some help inside from everyone else.

It will be raucous in the Kennel, but with Lucy and Keeley back, the Pilots should play better on both sides of the ball. Keeley is as tenacious as they get coming off the bench, and Lucy should make it more difficult for GU while looking to exceed her average of 8 points and 7 rebounds per game. She also has 49 blocks, ranking her sixth in the nation, while her per-game average of 4.1 blocks leads the nation.

It is going to be a battle, and for the Pilots to win they are going to have to even-up the rebounding and inside scoring while hitting the 3-point shots that have been alluding them of late.

by Vegemite Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:31 am

https://www.nbcrightnow.com/sports/gonzaga/portland-women-return-shot-blocker-lucy-cochrane-in-second-meeting-with-gonzaga/article_be0ccfb1-b7df-5deb-b846-e241aeca93cb.html

by Sound Voltex Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:17 pm

Another good fight like before, but not a great finish. The sloppy turnovers at the end before the usual end-of-game hack-a-thon likely sealed the deal. I think they have the potential to pull another Vegas upset, just gotta clean some things up and hit shots in key moments.

Also a minor pet peeve, but the super delayed score updates/game clock on the bottom scorebar on stream was a tad bit annoying when trying to figure out how exactly close it was at times while multitasking.

by DoubleDipper Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:14 pm

Yeah, the game was a lot closer than the final score indicated. I know Coach Meek likes to run plays at the end, probably for the experience as much as anything, and to get the ball back the Pilots need to foul, but part of the NET rating is margin of victory/loss, and in both GU games the Zags were very successful at the foul line in the closing minutes.

The high quality of the UP streaming/TV production has been mentioned on this forum before, and I believe GU's visual production was its equal, but we are so, so fortunate to have Bryan and Jen behind the microphone. I was taught to not say anything if you can't say something nice, so I will not comment on the Gonzaga announcing pair. Rolling Eyes

by bullwinkle Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:39 pm

My overall impression of the first game between UP and GU was that both teams played poorly, but the Zags played a little less poorly. This second game was actually a pretty good game, but we got outplayed at the end - but still a winnable game for us.

When they put Mckelle in I wish they'd tell her staying in is contingent on her being aggressive on offense. She's good at defense, a good ball handler, and a good shooter.

For the first time this year, I hit mute in the first quarter and watched the rest off the game in silence (I'm sure they'll improve when they get a tad more experience).

by OldGuy Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:28 am

Hello, I'm new to the forum. I have been quietly reading everyone's post for years. I appreciate all the positive comments and the love for Pilots sports. With that said, could someone please explain to me the lack of 3s attempted with the Womans team? I know the stats don't look good, but how are you going to get better if you don't keep trying? McKelle was a 3-point monster in High School. If she would be given the greenlight to fire away, and she makes them, it would open up the inside game. Thoughts?

by DoubleDipper Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:57 am

OldGuy wrote:Hello, I'm new to the forum. I have been quietly reading everyone's post for years. I appreciate all the positive comments and the love for Pilots sports. With that said, could someone please explain to me the lack of 3s attempted with the Womans team? I know the stats don't look good, but how are you going to get better if you don't keep trying? McKelle was a 3-point monster in High School. If she would be given the greenlight to fire away, and she makes them, it would open up the inside game. Thoughts?

Welcome, OldGuy, I bet you are not the oldest guy on this forum.

Yes, this forum has been good at staying positive for the most part. It was tough during the Porter era, but it has really been all about supporting the student-athletes and not denigrating them for what might be viewed a poor performance as happens on many forums.

As for UP's 3-point shooting...it is not good, but if it were, it would open up the inside...but it's not, and to keep jacking-up 3-pt attempts and coming away with zero makes no sense to me.

Yes, McKelle is a good shooter, and I think she led the team in 3-pt percentage last season on her few attempts, but 1. If she is the PG she should be distributing the ball, 2. College defenders are way better than in high school, 3. She was missing her 3-pt attempts pretty badly during the preseason and may be lacking the confidence she once had (speculation), and 4. Being the coach's kid can be an uncomfortable position for both the player and the coach, and I would imagine McKelle is more comfortable being the teammate rather than the shooter (speculation). I think once she sees the ball going through the net, she will begin lighting it up again, but it is going to have to start during practice, not during close games when insides scoring is working.

by Geezaldinho Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:15 pm

DoubleDipper wrote:
OldGuy wrote:Hello, I'm new to the forum. I have been quietly reading everyone's post for years. I appreciate all the positive comments and the love for Pilots sports. With that said, could someone please explain to me the lack of 3s attempted with the Womans team? I know the stats don't look good, but how are you going to get better if you don't keep trying? McKelle was a 3-point monster in High School. If she would be given the greenlight to fire away, and she makes them, it would open up the inside game. Thoughts?
Welcome, OldGuy, I bet you are not the oldest guy on this forum.

Yes, this forum has been good at staying positive for the most part. It was tough during the Porter era, but it has really been all about supporting the student-athletes and not denigrating them for what might be viewed a poor performance as happens on many forums.

As for UP's 3-point shooting...it is not good, but if it were, it would open up the inside...but it's not, and to keep jacking-up 3-pt attempts and coming away with zero makes no sense to me.

Yes, McKelle is a good shooter, and I think she led the team in 3-pt percentage last season on her few attempts, but 1. If she is the PG she should be distributing the ball, 2. College defenders are way better than in high school, 3. She was missing her 3-pt attempts pretty badly during the preseason and may be lacking the confidence she once had (speculation), and 4. Being the coach's kid can be an uncomfortable position for both the player and the coach, and I would imagine McKelle is more comfortable being the teammate rather than the shooter (speculation). I think once she sees the ball going through the net, she will begin lighting it up again, but it is going to have to start during practice, not during close games when insides scoring is working.

Another thing to consider is that the three point line in high school is 19’ 9” , while the Women’s college line was 22’ 9” last year and 22’ 1 3/4” this year to match the international standard ( 6.75 meters),

I’ve watched a fair amount of girls basketball in Oregon and compared to college they don’t mark shooters in girl’s or boy’s games. In college, especially in conference, if you have a rep as a shooter, you will have someone in your face. Scouting in conference season is pretty good. That can make your second season harder than the first.

Those two factors makes it harder for some kids than others to transition. Hopefully, it will come.

Someone might want to check that the linees on practice courts are the same as the main court.

by bullwinkle Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:14 am

I don't study the data on this stuff the way several of you do, but I did listen to an interesting interview with Mark Cuban (owner of the Dallas Mavericks) recently. The data he was giving for the NBA was fascinating. He said if a team hits 40% of their 3 pointers in the NBA, they'll average about 1.2 points per possession. To equal that with just 2 point shots a team would have to hit 60% of their 2's. If a team hits 33% of their 3's that's equivalent to hitting 50% of their 2's (now that I get). This is the kind of data that explains why we regularly see NBA teams shooting 3's well beyond the arch - it pays.

Lot of great considerations above for our women's team. Would still like to see us shooting more 3's. It would give us more balance on offense and it adds to the fun.

by OldGuy Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:17 pm

Looks like I got what I was asking for. 33% on 3's. The game opened up. when Fowler hit that 3 I almost lost my mind. So much fun. Thank you coach, thank you team. Let's do this. Go Pilots!

by DoubleDipper Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:42 am

The Santa Clara game would have been a lot more fun had we known the Pilots were finally going to win in OT, instead it was a nail biter that had me second-guessing the coach on occasion.

The Broncos were allowed way too many back door cuts and easy layups, and #23 had way too many easy looks within 10 feet.

The Pilots were up by 3 with only 6 seconds remaining and #23 buries a 3-pointer at the 4 second mark to take the game to OT. Don't you foul her early and send her to the line for 2 shots? Seems straight forward to me with 6 seconds or less to play.

Two key offensive plays on OT turned the tide in UP's favor: Alex's 3-pointer on back-to-back baskets by her to bring the team from 1 point down the 3 up, and then Maise's runner for a 2-pointer as the shot clock expired with 45 seconds to go after #23 had brought SCU back within 1.

SCU rode on the shoulders of their Bronco, #23 Lindsey VanAllen, for 43 minutes and 32 points, just as UP rode Alex for 41 minutes and 32 points. Wonderful performances by both...good thing they have 5 days before their next games.

Good win for UP after losing both games to SCU last season, including a 1-point loss in the Chiles Center. Now back on the road against USD and PU.

by up7587 Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:09 am

DoubleDipper wrote:The Pilots were up by 3 with only 6 seconds remaining and #23 buries a 3-pointer at the 4 second mark to take the game to OT. Don't you foul her early and send her to the line for 2 shots? Seems straight forward to me with 6 seconds or less to play.

I recall a discussion about this years ago when the men lost a game in OT. There wasn't a consensus answer. And that was more like 3 seconds to go. KenPom has an article on this. Conclusion is that criticizing coaches for not fouling is misplaced. https://kenpom.com/blog/yet-another-study-about-fouling-when-up-3/

by DoubleDipper Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:58 am

up7587 wrote:I recall a discussion about this years ago when the men lost a game in OT. There wasn't a consensus answer. And that was more like 3 seconds to go. KenPom has an article on this. Conclusion is that criticizing coaches for not fouling is misplaced. https://kenpom.com/blog/yet-another-study-about-fouling-when-up-3/

Okay, after listening to the counsel of others and reading KenPom's article, I believe Coach Meek's decision to NOT foul was probably the correct one despite VanAllen burying the 3-pointer.

My aversion to allowing the 3-point shot with seconds remaining comes from the 2015 men's game in which Weber St. hit a trey with less than a second left to tie the Pilots in the Moda Center before the Wildcats went on to win by 10 in OT. It is hard to forget some games, and in that one Alec Wintering scored 26 before fouling out late and Rev was second-guessing himself for weeks.

What Coach Meek had that I did not, were people on the bench with clipboards who knew that VanAllen had been 0-6 at three-point attempts before she hit the big one. And as she has been shooting free-throws north of 85% on the season (3-5 yesterday), perhaps she would have made both and the Pilots would have thrown away the inbound pass (I can recall it happening on back-to-back possessions yesterday).

Regardless, she was guarded well, made the shot, and the Pilots won in OT. cheers

by wrv Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:30 pm

The VanAllen three pointer with seconds to go was quite the play from a skilled player who was having a stellar game, foul her or not. We had two Pilots running at her, to no avail. A fellow sitting in back of me about three rows began to curse out loud at Coach Meek for not having VanAllen guarded sufficiently--adding to the charm of the moment for me. They were left with the option of tackling VanAllen but I suspect it would not have worked.

I agree with Old Guy that it was an exciting game and with DD that it was a nail biter. Every time we would pull away slightly, they would go on a run and either pass us or tie us.

The game was also frenzied and chaotic at times with unforced errors, to use a tennis term. The amount of energy the Pilots put into defense is remarkable--maybe the woman's equivalent of Dick Harter's "kamikaze kids" at Oregon: I am beginning to wonder if coach Meek has been influenced by Harter and his system. Coach Meek has said in an interview, as though it were not obvious with him, that you win games on defense.

Fowler put the team on her back and carried it. What a game. VanAllen had as good a game against the lady Pilots as I am remembering now. It is hard to reconcile Fowler's sincere humility with such skill and game.

Cochrane was clutch at the end with timely blocks and never in doubt free throws. Haylee struggled at the end in this game, particularly with her own attempts from the charity stripe. What a three by Fowler and a great play by Bunrham, a one-handed jack that hit the bottom of the net as the shot clock expired.

Looking forward to the season's remaining battles.

by Adam Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:38 pm

Another interesting aspect to end of the 4th was our inbound option for a long Maddie 3, which ended up guarded and an off-balance prayer. Design or broken play of a preferred option? I am used to final second inbounds plays off a tie game being something run off elbow upscreens or circle backs going into the bigs with the instruction to finish if open or go hard at body contact for a free throw if contested.

by wrv Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:06 pm

Adam wrote:Another interesting aspect to end of the 4th was our inbound option for a long Maddie 3, which ended up guarded and an off-balance prayer. Design or broken play of a preferred option? I am used to final second inbounds plays off a tie game being something run off elbow upscreens or circle backs going into the bigs with the instruction to finish if open or go hard at body contact for a free throw if contested.

I agree with your assessment. I wonder, however, whether the coaches had decided that they might well win in overtime and that throwing the ball into the paint risked a scrum in the paint where anything may have happened, including an offensive foul resulting in free throws for Santa Clara. Might have been better to take your chances in overtime. Same with screens for plays at the elbow.

Let's also not forget that there were only 1.6 seconds on the clock so getting a good look at the basket may have been difficult even with the plays you suggest. I did notice, to my surprise, that there were no Pilots in the paint for the last play, nor, for that matter, were there Pilots setting screens.

by Adam Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:48 pm

Free throws dont result from offensive fouls, hence why it is a common play choice to go aggressive in a keyway move at the body. And 1.6 seconds is a long time off a keyway catch, enough for a power dribble post move even. But got the win, so who knows the reasoning, all good.

They will want some big margin wins and hopefully steal a game against BYU to crib their net ranking back up for tourny contention from 3rd after dropping from 54th to 70th. How many in womens bracket?

by DoubleDipper Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:36 pm

Adam wrote: How many in womens bracket?

Expansion of the field from 64 teams to 68 teams was just approved.

There are 32 automatic qualifiers based upon teams winning conference tournaments or however individual conferences determine their champions, and there are now 36 at-large selections.

The last four at-large teams and teams seeded 65 through 68 will compete in opening-round games prior to the start of the first and second rounds of the championship. Those teams will not play each other but in opening round games at four campuses of teams seeded in the top 16.

Currently, the prediction is BYU will be a 4-seed and Gonzaga an 11-seed, and for UP to make it to the Tournament again they would have to win the WCC Tournament.

by Snus Junction Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:35 am

I was there for the Weber State loss. Could not believe we did not foul and put him on the line. May have been a factor in Coach’s departure.

by DoubleDipper Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:55 pm

Alex Fowler is the WCC Player of the Week for second time this season.

It had to be a close vote between SCU's Lindsey VanAllen who scored 32 points in her game against the Pilots and put up 28 against USF seven days earlier...but that game was probably outside the WCC POW window.

https://portlandpilots.com/news/2022/1/24/womens-basketball-fowler-garners-wcc-player-of-the-week-honors-for-second-time.aspx

by wrv Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:00 pm

wrv wrote:
Adam wrote:Another interesting aspect to end of the 4th was our inbound option for a long Maddie 3, which ended up guarded and an off-balance prayer. Design or broken play of a preferred option? I am used to final second inbounds plays off a tie game being something run off elbow upscreens or circle backs going into the bigs with the instruction to finish if open or go hard at body contact for a free throw if contested.

I agree with your assessment. I wonder, however, whether the coaches had decided that they might well win in overtime and that throwing the ball into the paint risked a scrum in the paint where anything may have happened, including an offensive foul resulting in free throws for Santa Clara. Might have been better to take your chances in overtime. Same with screens for plays at the elbow.

Let's also not forget that there were only 1.6 seconds on the clock so getting a good look at the basket may have been difficult even with the plays you suggest. I did notice, to my surprise, that there were no Pilots in the paint for the last play, nor, for that matter, were there Pilots setting screens.

I stand corrected. Thank you.

by DoubleDipper Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:34 am

Adam wrote:Free throws dont result from offensive fouls, hence why it is a common play choice to go aggressive in a keyway move at the body. And 1.6 seconds is a long time off a keyway catch, enough for a power dribble post move even. But got the win, so who knows the reasoning, all good.

In the context you are presenting, it is true that a player control foul (the player with the ball commits the foul) does not result in free-throws, however, if another offensive player sets an illegal screen or smashes into stationary defender while running for the pass, that will result in 2 free throws if the opposing team is in the bonus (5 fouls in a quarter), and that was the game-set Saturday.

On the 1.6 seconds inbound play, Maddie comes from the middle of the paint and goes around the right side of the paint and around a screen from Lucy and then beyond the top of the key where she takes the inbound pass from Emme and then takes an off balance 3-point attempt from about 5 feet beyond NBA range due to the excellent defense.

On that play, it is my opinion that Lucy set an illegal/moving screen to free Maddie which could have resulted in 2 free-throws for the visitors. No call was made, but contact was made while Lucy was moving with the defender (Lana Hollingsworth from Melbourne) who followed Maddie all the way to her releasing the ball.

"Keyway." I do not know that term, but it is probably what we North Americans once called the "key" but is now simply referred to as the "paint" or "lane" but is officially known as the "free-throw lane," which of course the NBA, the NCAA, and FIBA all demand to be of different sizes and dimensions. Rolling Eyes

And then we have the "top of the key," which is officially called the "free-throw circle."