2023-2024 Schedule/Season

wrv wrote: Rhyan Mogel ran the point well, steady in the second half and also hit a three.

I think the Pilots may have found a new starting point guard tonight in their come from behind win over Montana St.

Rhyan did not fill up the stat sheet, that was left up to Emme and fellow freshman Dyani, but she was the one who came off the bench to control the tempo and take care of the ball after the game had gotten too wild for the Pilots.

It's been a while since I've commented on the refereeing of the women's game in the WCC, and because this forum tends to stay positive, I won't begin commenting now...

DoubleDipper wrote:

wrv wrote: Rhyan Mogel ran the point well, steady in the second half and also hit a three.

I think the Pilots may have found a new starting point guard tonight in their come from behind win over Montana St.

Rhyan did not fill up the stat sheet, that was left up to Emme and fellow freshman Dyani, but she was the one who came off the bench to control the tempo and take care of the ball after the game had gotten too wild for the Pilots.

It's been a while since I've commented on the refereeing of the women's game in the WCC, and because this forum tends to stay positive, I won't begin commenting now...

I agree Rhyan had a solid game.  It was great to see and a confidence-builder for her.  However, I wouldn't change the starting line-up on the basis of one game.  McKelle has earned her starts with equally solid games night after night.  She is comfortable with in-bound passing, has a ton of assists, is amazing with no-look passes, and plays great defense.  I'd like to see her shoot a bit more, but that's a small thing.  I hope Rhyan continues to be a dependable option when McKelle needs a breather, and continues to build on what she's done .  

I also appreciate the diplomatic comments about the refereeing.  I hope they do some reviews after each game so they continue to improve.

Pilots fall to SFA by 5.  Nice start, but then it turned into a game marked by nice runs followed by stumbles.  We'd get close, then have turnovers or miss free throws.  Plenty of opportunities to have made it our win.  

Does anybody know why Florence isn't playing?  From the little we saw of her in her redshirt year, she could hit three's.  This year in the few minutes she's played, she has demonstrated an ability to get to the basket as well.  While those minutes have mostly been at the end of games already decided by the scoring margin, she still looks very good.

bullwinkle wrote:Does anybody know why Florence isn't playing?  

That's a head scratcher for me also.

I spoke to Flo briefly after the Montana State game and she said she was healthy...I guess we have to trust in the coach's decision, but I think all of us agree that she has helped the team when on the court.

...and she's really fun to watch!

bullwinkle wrote:I agree Rhyan had a solid game.  It was great to see and a confidence-builder for her.  However, I wouldn't change the starting line-up on the basis of one game.   

McKelle had one of her better games with 13 points, 3 assists, and 2 steals, but on the minus side, she also had 4 turnovers in 26 minutes of action.

wrv wrote:
The discussion to replace Meek as starting point guard needs to include Hamilton. Mckelle had a rough game. Khiana actually had more minutes than Mckelle, 29 to 24.

Lucy Cochrane has been a persistent presence in the paint all year. She affects an awful lot of shots. Her rebounding numbers are up without Alex.

The player I think needs more time is Fraley. Depth on this team makes playing time difficult to come by.

I'll add that Dickie had a good game. She is hitting threes.

As an observer of the women’s team for the last 4 or 5 years, it seems like subbing is quite erratic and quite often based on emotion this year.

The conversation of PG arose after playing Montana State. I don’t think Mogel played any minutes at PG since that game. Is she sick or injured?

Agree on Nathalie. She definitely is a composed offensive player. There may be more athletic kids at 4, but with front court players in short supply, she could definitely get more run.

In my humble opinion, they should be sitting at 10-1 (never were in the Villanova game). Had a similar start last year and turned it around in conference, but would think staff would starting thinking bigger and not continue to only play for the conference and continue to let these games slip away.

Think coming off of what they were able to do with Alex and crew over last few years has increased the overall talent and depth. Maybe need a vision like the Zags have. Not competing just for conference titles but moving towards national relevance.

wrv wrote:That was a hard game to watch.

+1

Very, very ugly!

Tough environment to win in with the noise and distractions and the referees taking over the game instead of letting the kids play.

Fortunately, the "old ladies" on the team, Lucy, Kiana, and Kennedy remained unfazed by it all and collectively played their best game as Pilots.

(After finally having to mute those two UTEP guys who were calling the game, it solidified what a great broadcast team UP has in Ann, Jennifer, and Bryan...)

MisterNoone wrote:As an observer of the women’s team for the last 4 or 5 years, it seems like subbing is quite erratic and quite often based on emotion this year.

I appreciate your insight Nooner, and wondering if you could expand on that a bit.  

Coach Meek's emotions, the players emotions?  Emotion over performance?

I know the game brought out my emotions after turnover after turnover after turnover made me want to throw my phone out my car's window about 31 times...

DoubleDipper wrote:

MisterNoone wrote:As an observer of the women’s team for the last 4 or 5 years, it seems like subbing is quite erratic and quite often based on emotion this year.

I appreciate your insight Nooner, and wondering if you could expand on that a bit.  

Coach Meek's emotions, the players emotions?  Emotion over performance?

I know the game brought out my emotions after turnover after turnover after turnover made me want to throw my phone out my car's window about 31 times...

Unfortunately, the turnovers seem to be baked into the system both from a tactical standpoint and technical standpoint.  Currently sitting at 19.6 TO/GM puts the ladies at the bottom of the WCC in that category only a touch ahead of Pepperdine who averages 23.  Last 3 seasons have averaged between 16.2-17.7 TO/GM.  The tactical side of course should clean up a bit as the team continues to gel.  The number of travels is quite shocking for a top mid major division 1 program but will focus on the main question.

I will preface the emotional rotations as not a simple one-off game observation and has been apparent over the last few seasons with a case sample as well as a specific sequence in the UTEP game.  

First off, a bit of what I do know.  Coach Meek has made a big emphasis on effort both in game and in practice.  There are girls that play their guts out game in/game out, and from what I hear every practice.  The case sample I will point to is Emme.  That kid plays as hard as she can IMO every single game and practice is no different.  She commits to the high-pressure full court press of Coach Meek which often finds her chasing at full speed as the tactic is to apply heavy ball pressure regardless of live dribble option forcing the ball handler into the waiting help.  I think most could agree, that often it appears that whoever is on the primary ball handler in the press seems to be not playing ball pressure in a traditional sense (space with understanding of what the defender's capabilities are vs the ball handlers to not have a bad beat).  Regardless, my point in bringing this up, is that Emme tends to get early fouls as a result of the tactic (only averages 2.7 fouls/game over her career), and in games over the last season, Emme rotates out within the first couple minutes of the game if she gets a foul and sits for long stretches.  Often, she sits out the remainder or near remainder of the first quarter.  As likely your most consistent 2-way player this year, this doesn't make sense, nor is it based on a statistical predication towards fouling out.  I have noticed this trend with Emme this year quite often, but also last year.  My point in this particular case, is the data doesn't support the choice to take your best 2-way player off the court when she is doing exactly what you are asking her to do in the full court which will likely get her a couple of fouls, but at 2.7 fouls per game over her career, she generally adjusts.  Again, could just be a coaching check in to pull her, but sitting for 6, 7, 8 minutes at a time early seems to not add up logically.

To further the observation, Emme is 4th in playing time/game only ahead of Mckelle by .3 min/game.  She is 3rd in F/G% at 49.5% of girls in the regular rotation and currently tied for the most ppg.  4th in rpg, 1st in spg.  Currently plays 3-8 minutes per game less than the other starters (other than McKelle).  On paper, her playing time doesn't make sense.  On push for high effort, rotations/playing time doesn't make sense either.  Two-way player (most steals, highest points), doesn't make sense.  Does the above support a decision based on emotion/feeling or a specific intentional decision with clarity of empirical data?
 
The particular moment in the UTEP game that seemed to be rather a blatant emotional sub by the staff was a sequence of 4 consecutive plays for the Pilots.  Both of the players subbed back in at relatively close to the same time based on my memory (which is less and less sharp these days).

Play 1:  Emme T/O on offensive end
Play 2:  Mckelle has T/O on the offensive end
Play 3:  Mckelle has T/O on the offensive end
Play 4:  Mckelle/teammate involved in bad defensive rotation resulting in foul on teammate.  

Coach Meek definitely has a short leash in general and for certain kids more so than others.  One would think if there was a sub to make, it would be the player who had 3 consecutive issues.  However, Emme was subbed out.  The decision makes no logical sense in that situation other than emotion driving the staff's decision which undoubtedly happens at every level, it just seems to be more pronounced so far this year than in previous years.

I know this happens at every level.  I was at a high school game just the other day sitting in the stands behind the bench and a player made a really poor choice and the coach immediately turned to his bench and said, "Go sub in."  The player steps on the court....."for who coach?"  Coach tells him to sub in for a kid who had just subbed in that wasn't even involved in the bad play that prompted the sub, so observationally, emotion can run deep for the decision maker.

Coaches obviously make decisions based on emotion, they are human.  As a result, the staff will play who they trust.  The hope would be with multiple assistants on the staff, that there is balance in the decision making based on the core beliefs of the program, in game effectiveness on both ends of the court, and imperial data driving the decision making in the heat of the battle as it is easy to get wrapped up in the moment as the front person and lose the forest through the trees.  I know Coach Meek has been frustrated with the team this year indicating they are difficult to coach at times, so perhaps that frustration is showing in some decision making.

And for sake of transparency, I have never spoke to Emme in my life, so I'm not hedging for any particular change that would favor her specifically or any other player.  It is just a very obvious case.  I could pick other situations that are inherently the opposite (and other positive player cases/performance, Flow, Nat, Ryan).....why does this person play so much based on above criteria, doesn't make sense, but this is a ridiculously long inconsequential post already!

Your analytic approach to basketball is way above my ability as a "simple fan" to comprehend, but I can certainly agree that Emme spends too much time on the bench given her ability on both sides of the ball.

I have spoken to Emme about fouling, and as a good teammate she has said, "I am maturing, I am getting better at not fouling."

But yes, it is obvious there is a TEAM on the court, not individuals, and sometimes players suffer the consequences of another player being slow or out of positions or misreading the situation.

Your comment about "multiple assistants" and "balance in the decision making" is a good one, because from the perspective of some, me included, there is very little, if any input from assistants during the game...however, it has been my observation that there is good input, and good individual tutoring from Coach Meek's assistants during practice.

As so often happens, when we fans question the in-game decisions, we also say, "well, the results have shown the staff is doing a good job." This year has been a struggle, but as pointed out in earlier posts, Coach Meek's system is a very difficult one and there are six new players attempting to assimilate/learn it on the fly this fall instead redshirting or simply sitting on the bench a year to learn it.

Nooner, have you considering sending your analysis to Coach Meek for his thought and comment?

wrv wrote:

I am perplexed at the suggestion that emotion is central to sub patterns. It bears stating that emotion is and will remain difficult to discern in sub patterns with perhaps

Good lively dialogue amongst us as the keyboard coaches!!!

I certainly wasn’t suggesting that all rotations or even the majority of rotations were emotionally based.

Coaches get to coach and we get to cackle!

wrv wrote:My thought is that for periods during any season he begins with essentially a preset formula for subs on which he relies. If you are a lower level player your opportunity to play is diminished, even in the face of poor play by those in front....

Yes, I agree with your assessment.

And I believe that is the biggest reason we don't see Emma and Flo in the games. They are considered "3rd-string" by the staff, and unless there is an injury, the predetermined 10 players get all the court time except when the game is out of hand.

Although we have seen very, very little of Emma's play, we know from her juniors and high school tapes that she is very talented but has never had the opportunity to show that talent on game day...and speaking from my own experience, game day is when some shine and make their teammates play better.

As mentioned in previous posts, we have seen Flo's talent, especially on offense, and as frustrating as it is for fans to see her on the bench, it has to be exponentially difficult for Flo.  Perhaps, it's her defensive play that's holding her back, but we haven't seen enough of her to know.

I don't want to see the team blown-out by Stanford on Friday, but it would be a good opportunity for Emma and Flo to impress their coach.

Stanford put the women in a hole from the get-go, with 9-0 and 17-3 leads, and a 28-9 first quarter. Seven players on the bench played, and six got 10 or more minutes. The final was 81-51.

Willamette was a much weaker challenge, and bench players got the majority of the minutes in the 83-40 game.

Kennedy looked like Alex the way she just relentlessly went to the basket against bigger defenders - and scored or drew fouls.

Depth and halftime seemed to be the ingredients for the Pilots to pull out the win over USD last night.

The strategy was to go inside in the first half, but between those pesky turnovers and the ball just not going in the hoop, UP trailed by 12 points early in the second quarter before whittling it down to an 8-point deficit at halftime.

But after halftime UP was much more intense in their approach and Maise was the key with her athleticism and tenacity in the paint.

Finally, UP's pressure defense and depth wore down USD and the Pilots (sort of) coasted the last few minutes.

I think USD's Cindi Fisher is a great coach, so the rematch in San Diego will likely be a slugfest.

wrv wrote:Fisher may be a good coach but she is, shall we say, temperamental.

Agreed. I thought it was a really questionable coaching move to burn four timeouts in the first half when USD was struggling to get the ball over the half-court line. When the Pilots turned the pressure up to 11 at the start of the second half and went on a huge run, there was nothing she could do to break the momentum. It totally shifted the game.

SCU made it to Chiles tonight. Did any fans? Reviewing the box score, the Broncos were led by 2nd year star Tess Heal and fellow Melbourne-ite and former Pilot Keeley Frawley. They had 19 and 13 points respectively. The Pilots were led by Shearer with 15, Burnham with 14 and Ananiev with 10. Six other Pilots scored and after a 4-4 tie, the Pilots led the rest of the way. They were 17 at half, led by as many as 18, and the closest SCU got after half was 7 points. The final was 73-63.

Key stats were 51.9% shooting from the floor, 17 assists on 28 FGs, 12 steals and 5 blocks (none by Cochrane).